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Open letter to readers: Today and tomorrow

By Lynda Waddington | 11.17.11

Wednesday was a difficult day for The American Independent News Network, which is the larger entity that operates The Iowa Independent. Our chief executive and founder announced two of our sister sites would close and their content would be moved to The American Independent.

ACS lockout continues; plan emerges to repeal sugar protections

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By Virginia Chamlee | 11.15.11

A recently introduced bill could have far-reaching impact on the U.S. sugar industry, including American Crystal Sugar, a farmer-owned cooperative that locked out 1,300 Midwest workers on Aug. 1.

Cain campaign: Farmers know more about regulations than EPA

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By Andrew Duffelmeyer | 11.15.11

The chairman for Herman Cain’s Iowa effort says the campaign “relied more on the word of farmers than Washington regulators” in deciding to run an ad containing claims the Environmental Protection Agency says are false.

Mathis wins, Democrats maintain Senate control

Liz Mathis
By Lynda Waddington | 11.08.11

The Iowa Senate will remain under the control of a slim 26-25 Democratic majority when it reconvenes in January 2012.

Press Release

PR: Nation should work to address veterans’ challenges

By Press Release Reprints | 11.11.11

BRUCE BRALEY RELEASE — As US involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan ends, it’s more important than ever that our nation works to address the challenges faced by the men and women who fought there.

PR: Honoring veterans, help in hiring

By Press Release Reprints | 11.11.11

CHUCK GRASSLEY RELEASE — A difficult job market is challenging the soldiers, sailors and airmen who have protected America’s interests by serving in the Armed Forces.

PR: In honor of America’s veterans

By Press Release Reprints | 11.11.11

TOM LATHAM RELEASE — No one has done more to secure the freedom enjoyed by every single American than our veterans and those currently serving in the armed services.

PR: Honoring and supporting our nation’s veterans

By Press Release Reprints | 11.11.11

DAVE LOEBSACK RELEASE — Veterans Day is an opportunity to reflect on the service of generations of veterans and to honor the sacrifices they and their families have made so that we may live in peace and freedom here at home.

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Iowa bills open door for use of deadly force to protect the unborn

By Lynda Waddington | 02.24.11 | 8:30 am

Two bills sponsored by Iowa House Republicans could have significant public safety consequences, and perhaps the most unnerving of those potential outcomes would be the justifiable use of deadly force against abortion or family planning providers.

When the two pieces of legislation are combined they create a situation where a fertilized egg would be considered a person, and allow for the public execution of those who would threaten such a person.

If passed into law, the two bills — House File 7 and House File 153 — would offer an unprecedented defense opportunity to individuals who stand accused of killing such providers, according to a former prosecutor and law professor at the University of Kansas, and are something that might have very well led to a different outcome in the Kansas trial of the man who shot Dr. George Tiller in a church foyer.

Melanie D. Wilson, associate professor of law at the University of Kansas, closely followed the trial of Scott Roeder, the man convicted of murdering Tiller. Roeder, at the urging of Iowa anti-abortion activist and former GOP legislative candidate Dave Leach, attempted to use the necessity defense, which says it is permissible to commit a crime if it stops a greater harm. The judge in the case refused to allow Roeder to use that defense.

“When [Roeder] presented the necessity defense, he failed because the legislature had basically already decided the abortion issue,” Wilson said. “So, as long as Tiller was performing legal abortion, [Roeder], as a defendant, didn’t get to re-decide the case [of abortion's legal status]. Just as a matter of law, the judge wouldn’t allow that argument.”

Currently, abortion is also settled law in Iowa. But House File 153, sponsored by 28 Republicans, challenges it. Under that bill, the state would be mandated to recognize and protect “life” from the moment of conception until “natural death” with the full force of the law and state and federal constitutions. Essentially, the bill declares that from the moment a male sperm and a female ovum join to create a fertilized egg that a person exists.

House File 7, which has been sponsored by 29 GOP House members, seeks to expand state law regarding use of reasonable force, including deadly force. Current state laws provide that citizens are not required to retreat from their dwelling or place of business if they or a third party are threatened. The proposal would significantly expand this to state that citizens are not required to retreat from “any place at which the person has a right to be present,” and that in such instances, the citizen has the right to use reasonable force, including deadly force, to protect himself or a third party from serious injury or death or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.

Also included in the proposal is a new section to the Iowa Code that would provide automatic criminal and civil immunity to a person who uses deadly force, unless a police investigation proves that the person was not acting “reasonably.” Also key to the immunity clause is the fact that law enforcement would likely be barred from arresting a person at the scene of an incident “unless the law enforcement agency determines there is probable cause that the force was unlawful under this chapter.” If law enforcement does make an arrest, and if that person is later found to have used reasonable force by a court of law, taxpayers could be on the hook for the reimbursement of the person’s attorney fees, court costs, compensation from loss of income and other expenses.

“This is a much stronger argument for a defendant,” Wilson said. “The hurdle that would need to be overcome is the standard of ‘reasonableness,’ but the larger question is who gets to decide that. Is that question that comes before a jury or does a fact-finder get to decide it? In the necessity defense with Roeder, he didn’t get to argue in front of a jury. As a matter of law, he failed. But if this is a jury, and there is a law that says a fetus is a person, then a jury could decide that a reasonable person in like circumstances could be justified in defending that fetus.”

Another aspect of the Roeder case had to do with “imminent threat,” and that is something not addressed in the bill before the Iowa legislature.

“Does this provide someone who is a person with an anti-abortion stance at least an opportunity that is more likely to get to a jury? I think the answer is yes,” Wilson said. “What we are looking at in Iowa is quite different [than the situation in Kansas], because there doesn’t appear to be an imminent requirement, which means that it will all turn on reasonableness. The legislature hasn’t dealt with how lawful abortions fit into this.”

Todd Miler, a criminal defense attorney in Des Moines, agrees that these two bills, when combined, create a situation that could lead to someone claiming the killing of an abortion provider or a family planning worker was reasonable use of deadly force.

“My first thought when I looked at House File 153 was that it was a first step — something that had been put out there as a first step toward a larger political goal. But, when you place it next to House File 7 the potential ramifications are startling,” Miler said.

“[House File 7] explicitly provides that people have a right to defend themselves or others at any place they are legally allowed to be. That would definitely include sidewalks or streets outside of clinics. They could attempt to kill a physician or a clinic worker, and if they did so while believing they were protecting another person, which would be defined under House File 153 as a fetus, then, under this law, they would have the right to do that.”

House Majority Whip Erik Helland (R-Grimes) is one of 19 Republicans and two members of leadership who has sponsored both pieces of legislation. When asked by The Iowa Independent if he was aware of or considered the practical ramifications of both bills, Helland avoided the question.

“The reality is I support both,” Helland said. “If we get a chance to pass both out of the House, I will vote for both.

“The reason I want both out of the House is because HF 153 will never get a vote in the Senate. There will be no vote to hold them on record. We can get the House D’s and R’s on record with 153, but HF 5 is the only one that might get a vote in the Senate, and if we have an opportunity to take a step forward and protect more life then we have to do it.”

When asked to clarify if his stated position meant that he understood the practical ramifications of the bills and that he supported such an outcome, Helland offered no further response.

Other Iowa House members who have signed on as sponsors to both bills are Dwayne Alons, Mark Brandenburg, Royd Chambers, Betty De Boef, Cecil Dolecheck, Jack Drake, Joel Fry, Chris Hagenow, Bob Hager, Daniel Huseman, Jared Klein, Dan Rasmussen, Walt Rogers, Jason Schultz, Chuck Soderberg, Annette Sweeney, Ralph Watts and Assistant Majority Leader Matt Windschitl. The Iowa Independent also reached out to Windschitl as a member of the leadership team for comment. None was provided.

Taken at face value, the bills provide Iowans an opportunity to protect themselves from harm or death at any time and at basically any place — unless the Iowan is woman facing a pregnancy that could endanger or health or life.  That aspect, according to former U.S. Rep. Dave Nagle, who practices law in Waterloo, shows the hypocrisy of those who have signed on as sponsors of both bills.

“It also shows that when you try to take the law where the legislature is taking it, you can really get into what I call a bog of inconsistencies,” Nagle said. “On one hand, you are allowed to shoot someone if you feel threatened, but, on the other hand, if you are going to die from a medical condition — pregnancy — you aren’t allowed to defend yourself against that eventuality.

“It really feeds into that old adage that Republicans value children from the moment of conception until birth.”

When laws like this are passed, he said, what happened in “Kansas will become the norm.”

Follow Lynda Waddington on Twitter


Comments

  • Anonymous

    So it would be legal to kill the woman seeking the abortion as well? Way to go republicans, keep fucking that chicken!

    • Anonymous

      MK, please. When we’re around the children we prefer to call ‘em *Chickenlovers* ~ Apologies to Officer Barbrady

      • Anonymous

        Given my level of disgust, I stand by my wording. :)

        • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_XEFGEOUH52QNNSCD233KGH7UE4 Wendy Peterson

          Way to go, double-down when using the phrase fucking that chicken!

          • Anonymous

            Don’t jump. You might hit your head on that joke. ;)

          • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_XEFGEOUH52QNNSCD233KGH7UE4 Wendy Peterson

            The House in Iowa just fell on you.

          • http://twitter.com/Veggrubles Veggrubles

            Wendy, it’s understood that you like using card game metaphors. Just was wondering, do you have anything to say about these house bills?

          • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_XEFGEOUH52QNNSCD233KGH7UE4 Wendy Peterson

            Beretta, Remington, Ruger, and Winchester.

  • Anonymous

    this is scary and disgusting. Way to make me feel safe, Iowa. Not.

  • Anonymous

    this is scary and disgusting. Way to make me feel safe, Iowa. Not.

  • BlueIA

    Despicable. So effing tired of this GOP assault on women. Really am intolerant of these disgusting Pieces OS.

  • Anonymous

    Doesn’t this sound hypocritical – kill those who want abortions? I feel this is ridiculous. There are other ways to arrive without this – like voting – DUH!

  • Anonymous

    Doesn’t this sound hypocritical – kill those who want abortions? I feel this is ridiculous. There are other ways to arrive without resorting to killing – like voting – DUH!

  • Anonymous

    I say if these Republicans are serious about the abortion issue – Then they should be boycotting products, services, agriculture – everything from China whose policy is mandatory abortion. China’s Vice President Xi JInping loves Iowa and enjoys a cosy relationship with Iowa Ag & Iowa politicians. Kudos to Rep. Eric Helland – who we hope was sober when he sponsored this nonsense bill (see his arrest file for an OWI in 2010) I’d rather they focus on the children & families that are viable in this State and offer legitimate assistance & support for their welfare.

    • Anonymous

      They are only for it if profit is involved. Dont you know that profit trumps evreything?

      • Anonymous

        Again would not let me “like” the site, but I agree! It all boils down to the royal buck in a Conservative legislator pocket and the pal that helped get ‘em there!

  • Anonymous

    Sorry, no way around this but to say it, these religious freaks are the primitive force that hurts our nation.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_XEFGEOUH52QNNSCD233KGH7UE4 Wendy Peterson

    I don’t care what the legislature says because my baby is protected by Smith & Wesson.

    • Anonymous

      That’s a hell of an assumption.

  • Anonymous

    This is the stupidest thing I have ever heard! Women are second class citizens now in what I used to call this “great” state that I grew up in? The whole world is fighting for freedoms, and those in the U.S. are growing less and less each day!!! I thought this state was making advances when it allowed marriage between people of the same sex! What the hell is happening in the United States when people are making bills saying it all right to murder someone? I don’ t understand it all! It makes me want to give up on the U.S. and live in Europe somewhere in which personal freedoms really do mean something!!!! This is against Roe v. Wade!

  • Anonymous

    This is outrageous!!! In a what I called my “great” home state– to be so arrogant as to take away the rights of murdered citizen’s family! Not to mention, they are circumventing and defying Roe v. Wade, and taking the rights away of women of that state, making them second class citizens!!!! Just when I began to grow proud by them becoming the second state to allow the marriage of same-sex couples! Nonetheless, while the rest of the world is fighting for their personal freedoms! It makes me want to run away to Europe, where personal freedoms still means something!! I am so ashamed and outraged!!!!!

    • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_XEFGEOUH52QNNSCD233KGH7UE4 Wendy Peterson

      The brothels are better in Europe so if I were you I would get a passport and leave.

      • Anonymous

        Wendy, what’s with you and brothels? Afraid they’ll put your home-based business out of business?

        • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_XEFGEOUH52QNNSCD233KGH7UE4 Wendy Peterson

          I do taxes.

          • Anonymous

            “taxes”, eh? On TV they always call ‘em “Johns”.

      • Anonymous

        I happen to have relatives in Europe. They dont get caught up in your religious crap. Their quality of lives are good. They have very safe societies. Norway has one of the lowest crime rates in the world. Speak with a brain please.
        There are plenty of brothels here too..just underground, or above ground in Nevada.

        • Anonymous

          Wouldn’t let me like your comment! I totally agree! Well said and thank you! Again, the site would not let me “like” a comment, but I feel good that I commented on it anyway! She really isn’t staying on topic because I think she has no idea what it is or has nothing of substance to say back about it! She is just outnumbered and outwitted!

      • Anonymous

        I suppose you would know about the subject than I, since you doubled-down to fuck the chickens! My point, Conservatives are circumventing federal mandate and trying to legalize murder of EVERYDAY citizens! What next making law so you can blow up the Capitol building that “just fell?” Like modsitheve said– police state– then we’re no better than all those countries W. supposedly said we needed saving from! It’s all in interpretation, like how I assumed you referring to blackjack and doubling-down on “fucking those chickens” to win big twice for you!!

  • George

    We need to impeach these idiots fast.

    • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_XEFGEOUH52QNNSCD233KGH7UE4 Wendy Peterson

      That’s an even better idea, impeach the idiots and then move to Europe for the brothels.

      • Anonymous

        What? Wendy, please stay on topic.

        • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_XEFGEOUH52QNNSCD233KGH7UE4 Wendy Peterson

          Brothels, brothels, brothels.

  • Anonymous

    This just keeps getting worse and worse! It’s making Iowa appear to a bunch of knuckle dragging neanderthals. I kindly wrote my Representative who is co-sponsoring all of ths garbage to get away from guns, gays and god and get to issues like the budget, jobs and economy. Embarrassing.

    • Anonymous

      Here! Here! or should I say, Hear! Hear!

  • Anonymous

    The combination of these two bills is another outrageous development in the Iowa Legislature. I hope people are not just reading about these things but will also confront their legislators of the outrageousness of the matter. We cannot assume that reason will prevail.

    • Anonymous

      I have petitioned already all of them offensive to me!

    • Anonymous

      I have petitioned already all of them offensive to me!

  • Anonymous

    Republicans eat babies.

  • Anonymous

    My question is…the police decide what’s “reasonable”. So we’re going back to vigilante justice? Just kill anyone you think might be committing a crime? Way to go, legislature…

    • Anonymous

      Tried to “like” your post, even referred to it! For some reason it wouldn’t let me “like” it! Confusing, or sometimes nonfunctional site!

  • Anonymous

    Sick and wrong! Includes you too, Wendy– who can’t recognize that this comes out of a tragedy of a family that lost a member of a family, and the judge said “no! you can’t use that defense! It’s against the law!” Sick and wrong– the whole thing! The voters brought in these Republicans to balance the budget, and they took liberties beyond the limits of the public view in my opinion! Of all the polls and comments, I’ve seen, and even the news– the majority is not in favor of what the legislature is doing, but they keep pushing their agenda! Wendy, you are in the minority, and off the subject entirely!!!

    • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_XEFGEOUH52QNNSCD233KGH7UE4 Wendy Peterson

      Consider this just something you have to put up with while the Republicans balance the brothel.

      • Anonymous

        You make think you’re funny, but you’re the only one Wendy! Look around you! You’re outnumbered, including a mother of two. In fact, I would imagine that most of these people are parents!!

        • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_XEFGEOUH52QNNSCD233KGH7UE4 Wendy Peterson

          So what you are saying is that most people on this blog didn’t have an abortion (as they have kids) while at the same time are against discouraging more abortions (are pro-choice)? Now that’s hypocrisy.

      • Anonymous

        You make think you’re funny, but you’re the only one Wendy! Look around you! You’re outnumbered, including a mother of two. In fact, I would imagine that most of these people are parents!!

  • Anonymous

    So, if a fertilized egg is a person, does that mean I get a tax deduction for that year. Will the state start issuing Conception Certificates?

  • Anonymous

    So, if a fertilized egg is a person, does that mean I get a tax deduction for that year? Will the state start issuing Conception Certificates?

    • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_XEFGEOUH52QNNSCD233KGH7UE4 Wendy Peterson

      You don’t get it… the state doesn’t have to issue “Conception Certificates” because there is already a sacrosanct acknowledgement of a lawful bond between mother and baby even when the baby is unborn. This lawful bond is detailed quite thoroughly in Roe v. Wade as this opinion essentially documents the stages of pregnancy among other things. If you are pregnant, consider your “Conception Certificate” silently issued.

      • Anonymous

        Really? A sacrosanct acknowledgement of a lawful bond between mother and child? And this lawful bond is detailed in SCOTUS’ opinion on Roe v. Wade? Cause I honestly just read all the opinions and couldn’t find this lawful bond mentioned anywhere. I did read where Justice Blackmun did detail the stages of pregnancy, however it was to establish at what point in that pregnancy the State could exert a compelling interest that overrides 14th Amendment protections. Justice Blackmun actually granted the State no compelling interest in the welfare of the embryo or fetus until the time the fetus was viable.

        If you could provide which passages you are referring to in your post I would like to know.

        • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_XEFGEOUH52QNNSCD233KGH7UE4 Wendy Peterson

          Yes. Really. If there was no lawful bond between mother and child the case known as Roe v. Wade wouldn’t exist. If the bond wasn’t sacrosanct we wouldn’t be having this conversation. And furthermore, did you ever wonder why the “state” has a compelling interest in an unborn baby? Let me know if you want to have more discussion regarding the mothers who are determined not be “fit” to raise their children even before they are born. But it’s not my problem if you don’t agree with that logic or think that this particular pillar of society is stupid.

      • Anonymous

        No Wendy, you don’t get it.

        I personally don’t think abortion is the answer to an unwanted pregnancy. I have two wonderful children. My wife and I planned it, yes, planned it this way. We didn’t have to resort to abortion or the pill to make sure we kept the number at two either. I would much prefer having an enlightened society that recognized the best, most effective way to
        approach this issue is from a contraceptive/preventative angle. My statement about Conception Certificates was made tongue in cheek in an effort to point out the idiocy of this attempt by our so called “representatives” to outlaw abortion without considering ALL the consequences. My statement was meant to highlight the fact that this bill would legally recognize a zygote that is unable to survive outside the womb as a person, a legal entity with all rights afforded any other person. Based on that premise, we should be able to get a social security number for the zygote and benefit on our taxes. Could we go further? How about life insurance for the zygote since it is a person. How would that be paid out if, god forbidding, the zygote didn’t make to a viable stage where it could survive outside the womb? I think what should happen is everyone who shares your belief take financial responsibility for every unwanted or special needs child you create by taking away a woman’s right to make decisions about her own body so the rest of society or any individual doesn’t have to pay for your beliefs.

        • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_XEFGEOUH52QNNSCD233KGH7UE4 Wendy Peterson

          Go to hell then.

          • Anonymous

            I’ll see you there.

          • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_XEFGEOUH52QNNSCD233KGH7UE4 Wendy Peterson

            One of the most common misconceptions out there is that the people who are pro-choice are nice people. I have known this to be wrong for years and these comments by SW_IA_Lib reinforce my viewpoint. Didn’t you learn in Sunday school that the devil comes in many pleasing forms?

          • Anonymous

            Speaking of sunday school, shouldn’t you be at church now?

            Funny thing about us humans, you look hard enough and you will find others who think you are nice. I have and I wouldn’t be surprised if you have too. Also, if you look hard enough you will find behavior in anyone that will reinforce your viewpoint. I find I don’t have to look as hard with your type. You are always the first to turn nasty because of your own self-righteousness. Sanctimony doesn’t do well when you are trying to win hearts and minds Wendy. Unfortunately, you are too busy knowing that you know that you know to see your own hypocrisy. I’m not trying to turn you to my point of view, I see that as an exercise in futility. I’m just asking you not to force yours on me. In this country everyone has the right to be wrong.

            As far as seeing the devil is concerned, you don’t have to come to a discussion group to find him. I’m sure you are find your own form of self-righteousness pleasing so you only have to go as far as your own mirror.

            Now, I’m going to go find another brick wall to bang my head against. Hey, everyone has to have a hobby.

            Cheers!

          • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_XEFGEOUH52QNNSCD233KGH7UE4 Wendy Peterson

            Well, uh, you know, you might think I’m pretty stupid but the great thing about the United States is that I can force my point of view on you and I have no problem in doing so because your comments (authored by SW_IA_Lib) are the best I’ve seen for encouraging a pro-life viewpoint.

          • Anonymous

            Good lord, I can’t believe I am responding to your last comment but it is of such breathtaking stupidity, I feel compelled to do so. Up until this point, I was giving you the benefit of the doubt as far as your intelligence was concerned. After all, there is ignorance and there is willful ignorance (f.y.i. that’s a nice way of saying stupid, sorry I didn’t use it earlier but well, I didn’t).

            All I can say is, Really?! You have either not taken a high school civics class yet or you slept through it. If I were to take your statement literally, I would think you actually believe that in this country, you can force your point of view on me? Really?! Where did you learn that, watching Glenn Beck? Because the last I checked, we live in the United States of America, not the Fascist State of Wendy. I don’t recall seeing anywhere in the U.S. Constitution or Bill of Rights where it
            says one citizen can legally deprive another citizen of their freedoms or rights because they don’t agree with them. And guess what? That is the only way you can attempt to force your point-of-view on me or any other person. In case you didn’t know, trying to force your point of view on someone else in this country usually involves actions that would be characterized as terrorism or kidnapping. Both of which are punishable by law. At least the law I recognize and obey as a citizen of the
            United States. Pray tell Wendy, who would lovingly hold that Smith and Wesson you so proudly proclaim to use to protect your children if you are locked up in jail for “forcing” your point of view on someone?

            The only other thing I can think of is that when you say “force” your opinion on me, you are talking about your right to stand on a street corner and yell at me like a lunatic as I walk by and ignore you or to post drivel on a discussion board. I can only hope the latter is the case
            otherwise I truly fear for the safety of the people in your community. Now I need to listen to my better angels and go back to ignoring you. Allah/God/Jehovah/Yahweh/Grand Architect/Odin/Jupiter/Zeus/Jesus Christ give me strength.

          • Anonymous

            Good lord, I can’t believe I am responding to your last comment but it is of such breathtaking stupidity, I feel compelled to do so. Up until this point, I was giving you the benefit of the doubt as far as your intelligence was concerned. After all, there is ignorance and there is willful ignorance (f.y.i. that’s a nice way of saying stupid, sorry I didn’t use it earlier but well, I didn’t).

            All I can say is, Really?! You have either not taken a high school civics class yet or you slept through it. If I were to take your statement literally, I would think you actually believe that in this country, you can force your point of view on me? Really?! Where did you learn that, watching Glenn Beck? Because the last I checked, we live in the United States of America, not the Fascist State of Wendy. I don’t recall seeing anywhere in the U.S. Constitution or Bill of Rights where it
            says one citizen can legally deprive another citizen of their freedoms or rights because they don’t agree with them. And guess what? That is the only way you can attempt to force your point-of-view on me or any other person. In case you didn’t know, trying to force your point of view on someone else in this country usually involves actions that would be characterized as terrorism or kidnapping. Both of which are punishable by law. At least the law I recognize and obey as a citizen of the
            United States. Pray tell Wendy, who would lovingly hold that Smith and Wesson you so proudly proclaim to use to protect your children if you are locked up in jail for “forcing” your point of view on someone?

            The only other thing I can think of is that when you say “force” your opinion on me, you are talking about your right to stand on a street corner and yell at me like a lunatic as I walk by and ignore you or to post drivel on a discussion board. I can only hope the latter is the case
            otherwise I truly fear for the safety of the people in your community. Now I need to listen to my better angels and go back to ignoring you. Allah/God/Jehovah/Yahweh/Grand Architect/Odin/Jupiter/Zeus/Jesus Christ give me strength.

  • Pat McGroin

    Dave Nagle, who practices law in Waterloo, shows the hypocrisy of those who have signed on as sponsors of both bills.

    “It also shows that when you try to take the law where the legislature is taking it, you can really get into what I call a bog of inconsistencies,” Nagle said. “On one hand, you are allowed to shoot someone if you feel threatened, but, on the other hand, if you are going to die from a medical condition — pregnancy — you aren’t allowed to defend yourself against that eventuality.

    We are being lied to. Neither of these bills deter abortion in any way.

  • Anonymous

    a clot of cells/fetus is not a baby its a parasite . yes , im sorry if it sound cold but it is what it is . as a proud mother of 2 and very proud of making an adult decision to choose to abort when i was 19 and it felt like the right thing and only reasonable thing to do i feel no remorse .
    conservatism is anything but pro life , it is anti life and anti family .
    its only concern is for the the unborn but once is born and the mother is unable to support because the ‘ husband ‘ has fled , they ( republicans and conservatives ) would never ever take any responsible and tell you : tugh !
    help your self lady ! , you’re poor ? tugh ! you got fired ? ask jesus to help
    …you
    no help from ‘ we the people ‘
    conservatives , every single one them are despicable

    • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_XEFGEOUH52QNNSCD233KGH7UE4 Wendy Peterson

      That’s quite a statement that made me vomit and I’m not pregnant. Here is the person with the snotty attitude and who should get the disapproving lecture. She calls an unborn baby a “parasite,” people who do not believe like her “despicable,” and then blames men for all her problems probably because they didn’t want to be around such a big jerk. And furthermore, she has terrible grammar and punctuation.

      The bottom-line here is that there is not a soul on Earth who thinks and writes like samantha_pro that is going to persuade me from my pro-life stance. Talk about brooms, witches, and evil…

  • Citizen Kane

    Wendy,
    I am so sorry those who think like yourself seem to have a need to invade and assume you have a right to decide what people think and choose. This is a free country and your allowed to have your point of view. I respect that. But how can you support the use of deadly force against people who don’t think you have that right? It seems hypocritical to me that those who are wrapping themselves in the flag and the freedoms the constitution provides to ALL of us, to take this kind of action. If they passed a bill saying it is OK to use deadly force to stop baptisams, would you not be upset, just a little? And don’t say it isn’t the same, it really is. The goverment has no business in these aspects of our short and difficult enough lives.

    History lesson for you on inalienable rights.

    Furthermore, every man is responsible for his own faith, and he must see it for himself that he believes rightly. As little as another can go to hell or heaven for me, so little can he believe or disbelieve for me; and as little as he can open or shut heaven or hell for me, so little can he drive me to faith or unbelief. Since, then, belief or unbelief is a matter of every one’s conscience, and since this is no lessening of the secular power, the latter should be content and attend to its own affairs and permit men to believe one thing or another, as they are able and willing, and constrain no one by force.

    Martin Luther

    • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_XEFGEOUH52QNNSCD233KGH7UE4 Wendy Peterson

      That’s a quite a lecture that would have made me vomit if I was pregnant. Since you are so interested in free speech, what happened with Eric?

      • Citizen Kane

        Wendy,
        I am not going to try to change your perspective, it is your belief. I am simply pointing out that the founder of the protestant religion, which is a large part of the movement that wants to impose their belief on to others, didn’t feel it was appropriate to do so or to use force in doing it. Our country was founded by the people who could not practice their beliefs, due to religious piety and physical threat. What makes it ok today to take this middle ages stance that was so long ago addressed as morally wrong?
        As for Eric, It is unfortunate a three time Rock and Roll Hall of Fame inductee has such a racist attitude lately. But really should stay on topic.

        • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_XEFGEOUH52QNNSCD233KGH7UE4 Wendy Peterson

          With some questions, such as the Eric topic, it’s hard to decide whether to dodge or ram them. So I guess that means you’re a racist who supports abortion? That’s impressive. Most people think pro-life supporters are the rednecks.

          • Citizen Kane

            You really need to pay a little more attention to what you read and say Wendy.
            “It is unfortunate” means I am not racist if you read the whole message in context. “Three time Rock and Roll Hall of Fame inductee” there is only one, which is Eric Clapton. “Racist attitude”, he has gotten heat for speaking out against blacks and Muslims in England recently and it was pretty vile.
            Are we done with the English Lesson?
            It is obvious you are not an Independent. so what brings you here? I love a good debate though, thank you.

          • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_XEFGEOUH52QNNSCD233KGH7UE4 Wendy Peterson

            I like to read independent versions of what happened with Eric.

      • Citizen Kane

        BTW, I am not for abortion, simply it is none of my business to determine how other people choose to believe or have control of their physical self. You can eat a dozen Twinkies a day if you like, I can’t tell you not to. But they do have a half-life of uranium you know.

  • Anonymous

    At least twenty percent of conceptions end in a spontaneous abortion. If this is God’s doing then this means God is the biggest abortionist!

  • George

    Time to give some of these so called leaders a mental evaluation. Maybe thats why they cut mental health programs, so that we wouldnt find out how far out there they really are.

    • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_XEFGEOUH52QNNSCD233KGH7UE4 Wendy Peterson

      I’d place a collect call to the Governor’s office for that one and furthermore I support giving mental evalutations to the so-called leaders in all levels of government especially the local government. Sometimes you really wonder what the people who work for city government are smoking…

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